TCK: Forum (public)

Update aug 24, 2017

Update jun 2, 2017

My definite final analyses of the Chevaline massacre. The girl did it.

#Chevaline LR babysitting. LR 15h32 call ‘Where is CS?’. CS was at Martinet, killing SM. LR realizes CS=X, covers 4 CS. WBM saw CS on motor.

Source: https://twitter.com/deadzone61/status/870056074409365505

Notes:

The notorius Lyon motorbiker is not X. I think there is another motorbiker. The one which the english biker saw coming down just before he arrived at the murder scene. This motorbiker was not our man from Lyon, but it was the girl.

Remember that there was a motorbiker seen on Col de Cherel? Ok, the said timing doesn’t fit. But maybe our farmer at the Col de Cherel got the times mixed up.

I think that motorbiker was the girl, coming from Grignon, going over Col de Cherel to Combe d’Ire/Martinet, counter clock wise so she would bump into Mollier.

Remember also that the girl, by her own admision, was not at home all day. She said ‘I went home so that Mollier could go biking’. In other words, the girl was outside. At Grignon maybe?

Of course, that is her story. That she came home so that Mollier could go biking. And that she stayed home with the baby. The baby becoming her rock solid alibi. Btw, was there any witness to this? That she came home at said time?

Now … remember the ex-wife’s 15h32 phonecall to Mollier. How strange. How utterly macabre that she phoned Mollier at the exact moment he was shot. And her explanation? ‘Oh, just nothing, just about the kids’

I don’t believe it. She phoned alright, but with another reason. She asked Mollier, ‘Where is the girl?’

Why? Why would she ask, ‘Where is the girl?’ … Because the ex-wife was babysitting for Mollier and was waiting for the girl to come back. But the girl was ‘delayed’. Delayed because … she was at Martinet, waiting for Mollier. To kill Mollier.

Of course we know things turned out bad. The al-Hilli’s arrived on the scene and became witnesses of the murder, and therefor had to be shot too. Which the girl did. After she finished off the al-Hilli’s she put some final bullets into Mollier (‘You bastard’).

Then she went home on her motorbike, but was seen by the english biker. Arriving home, the ex-wife must have guessed what had happened or maybe the girl told her. They ‘decided to team up’, very probably with money changing hands from the girl to the ex-wife. What other option did the girl have but to pay off the ex-wife?

Anyway, the ex-wife maintains her 15h32 story ‘About the kids’ and of course hides that she was babysitting. And with that the girl can maintain her rock solid ‘baby alibi’

What’s more to say? How can you crack this?

Maybe the Luger. Who knows. And did the ex-wife have an alibi for 14h-16h?

Cheers,
Max

My previous final analysis. Also good, but not as good as the final one above:)

Update nov 2, 2016

My final analyses of the Chevaline massacre. The ‘Granny’ did it.

I denote all actors with initials. I give my analyses in shorthand style, painting the key things with few words. Figure out the complete picture yourself. I’m not a novelist. I don’t want to write a 120 paged volume on the matter.

tck_granny2x

The ‘Granny’ did it

The ‘Granny’ (GSM) is the evil genius behind this thing, the ‘disposing of SM’. GSM organized the logistics, X was the friend in deed. Not supposed to be a massacre though. But Zainab and/or SAH disturbed X and SM (SM was already there! X held him at gunpoint) by the riverside. SM used this disturbance to try to escape from X, hence this is why he was shot in the back. Meanwhile SAH, on sensing the weird situation (SM and X) tried to escape, to no avail. The car got stuck and X terminated the SAH family because of being witnesses. SM’s ex, LR is in. She must be. She phoned SM at 15h32 when he already was at Martinet (held at gunpoint by X). LR knows, probably paid off by GSM.

GSM’s motive? SM simply was ‘unwanted’.

This is my final theory based on the facts as I know them. It maximizes the fit of pieces, while minimizing the left-overs (e.g. SAH visitor at the campsite).

PM, the legionnaire, probably is innocent, but his suicide shows how extreme the social pressure is. A force behind that social pressure probably is GSM. She saw in PM the perfect scapegoat. But she didn’t voice this directly though, that would alert the investigators.

More thoughts …

Anyway, Zainab said there was nobody when they arrived (iirc). This would be compatible with X and SM being near the river side, out of view. X wanted to kill-by-fake-accident SM, dump SM in the river, and throw the bike in the river later. If SM’s body would be found, maybe days later, who would think of a murder? Nobody, because nobody but X and the GSM party knew were SM was. Of course, when asked about the matter, GSM and X would state the didn’t know SM was biking around Combe d’Ire. He would be reported missing but nobody would find him until much later. That was the plan. The police would think of an fatal accident … nobody would come up with SM being murdered. Not your average gendarme anyway. The perfect crime.

Good plan, until SAH and Zainab stumbled on the scene going near the river side. SM, using the confusion, tried to escape from X. SM got to the road, then ran away over the parking. X also crawled up to the road, and shot the running SM in the back. SM fell on the ground, exactly in the trajectory of the reversing (reverse-break-reverse pattern) BMW of SAH. The BMW dragged SM to the other side of the parking where finally the BMW got stuck.  The rest is history.

So, it was the killer combo GSM-X. And who knows, once a killer, twice a killer? Maybe the GSM-X combo helped the other PM in 2007 by killing off CM. Team GSM-X was a team back in 2007 and again in 2012. Removing CM (danger to PM and thus GSM) and SM (danger to CS and thus GSM). The symmetry 2007=CM<–PM<=GSM=>CS–>SM=2012 is striking.

More thoughts …

The situation was this:

– SM arrived (before SAH) at parking Martinet
– X was already there (prepped for kill-by-fake-accident SM)
– X held SM at gunpoint with the ol’ Luger P06
– X wanted to ‘dump’ SM in the river (fake accident)
– X forces SM to the riverbed (behind barrier)
– Bike is at barrier (probably to be dumped in the river as well)

– SAH arrives
– Nobody to see (but the bike)
– SAH and Zainab get out
– Zainab wanders to side of the parking, near the river
– SAH goes to the barrier/bike
– SAH ‘disturbs’ X and SM

– SM takes the opportunity to try to escape
– SM ‘fights’ X
– SAH sees this (SM and X fighting, Luger P06 and all)
– SAH takes Zainab by the hand and runs to BMW

– SM manages to get to the parking, and tries to run away
– X also climbs up from the river bed to the parking (barrier)
– X, standing near the barrier, shoots SM in the back

– SAH meanwhile tries to escape in BMW (reversing)
– SAH runs over the, now downed, body of SM
– SAH drags SM, and gets stuck on the other side of the parking
– X kills witnessses

Main point is that SM was the target … but not to be shot, because a shot-dead SM would imply a ‘murder’, and this is not what GSM wanted. GSM wanted a ‘fatal accident’. A Luger sufficed to hold SM at gunpoint (explaining away the strange choice of weapon)

Plz do remember that CS, and thus GSM/TS, is/are instrumental in SM being at parking Martinet in the first place! This is fact. TS ‘adviced’ Martinet as a bike destination to SM (fact), and CS came back home early so that SM could go biking (fact). This was all ‘logistics’ planned stuff by GSM. Who knew the situation around Martinet? Answer: TS. GSM made sure X was already at Martinet. X being on foot. All prepped ‘logistics’. It makes sense. And the murder has the simplest of motives. It was a matter of GSM versus SM. The ‘disposing of’ SM.

The simplest explanations are often the best.

More thoughts …

I’m not saying SM was to be ‘drowned’, but more like ‘fallen into the riverbed, head on rock (Schumi) thingy’. If they would find SM, lying in the riverbed, with a head wound, who would think of murder? Nobody, unless there was to be a very paranoid gendarme. This gendarme would have to make the quantum leap ‘Hey this is not an accident but a murder case’ … but why would he do that?

GSM, TS, CS, etc had perfect alibi’s. Unless TS=X, which I think is the case. Then TS does not have an alibi other than the one provided by GSM.

Anyway, the situation took an unexpected and unwanted turn. The ‘massacre’. But GSM was lucky because even with SM shot, most eyes were on SAH. EM declaring, within 2 days that ‘the answer was to be found in the UK’.

Turn back to the kill-by-fake-accident plan. X would have make it to look like an accident. So, I think X wanted to dump the bike in the river next to SM. Of course, with the massacre at hand, X didn’t do that now, because a bike in the riverbed would be near proof (Columbo style) that SM was the target.

And who knows, maybe the bike was already near the riverbed(!) … But once SM escaped from X and was shot down by X and SAH was shot as well, X, to mask the ‘SM=Target’ thingy, had to pull the bike out of the riverbed and dump it on the parking, near the barrier.

This is what EM said, he said ‘It looked like the bike was thrown into a corner’

WBM stated ‘I saw the bike on the side’

The bike was ‘odd’. Yesterday night, I wondered about the pump. The airpump was lying on the ground somewhere. Where did this airpump come from. From SM’s pocket? Or was it attached to the bike?

~ Max

To continue discussing TCK in a public forum, I suggest CM. Just follow the link … CM public forum on TCK

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4,749 thoughts on “TCK: Forum (public)

  1. Hi all,

    With the shutdown of the forum/blog at MZT (Marilyn) …

    http://www.marilynztomlins.com/articles/chevaline-saad-a-hilli-sylvain-mollier-murder-most-foul-part-17

    … I thought it would be a nice idea to offer a new place to (continue to) discuss The Chevaline Killings (TCK). I have created this public forum and invite everybody who feels the need to discuss this case with others, to post here. Keep the rules (see top post) in mind and keep the atmosphere light hearted.

    I’ll throw in some names I remember from MZT, to get google going;)

    Partlucid, Bibi, Marlin, James, Patrick, Steve, Ollie, Peter, FatBastard, Bacchus, SeeBee, Rashomon, Sarah, Alex, Lars, Lynda, Marilyn, Ron, George, Oui, Jan, Eugene, RiffRaff, Shadwell, Y, Froggy, Sunflower … to name a few;)

    So … feel free

    – Max

  2. I found the ‘Lathuile Killing’ interesting in that it happened just 1 week (!) after the Chevaline ‘robot image’ was revealed. Also the account of the husband of the woman who was shot was a bit weird to my ears. Anyway, a nice idea to perhaps kick off

    http://www.ledauphine.com/haute-savoie/2013/11/11/meurtre-a-lathuile-une-femme-de-54-ans-tuee-d-une-decharge-de-fusil-de-chasse

    Note: I have to cut down on time ont ‘Chevaline’, as I have mentioned before on MZT. There are other things which also need my attention. Moderating deadzone is just one of the things I do (with as little effort as possible;)

  3. Hello Max, glad to see you’ve picked up the thread(s), what has struck me about the Lathuile murder is how qhickly the words ‘reglement de compte’ fall from peoples lips !!

    Seem to have a different law to the rest of us.

  4. Hi Max, thanks a lot…
    Hello Lars, Lynda… I’m still around… I’m glad to able to follow here as I’m not on Fb or anywhere else!
    To Marilyn: De tout coeur, félicitations et succès à Bella !

  5. Hi Bibi, nice to see you here.

    Hi cat, always nice to welcome a new person. What’s your take on the Chevaline killings?

  6. to Lars, thanks, in fact just discovering the “deep” case, articles, facts, opinions, images, might be opportune to zoom a bit backwards, a wider scope with “recul”, considering the ecology of fear in Haute Savoie and nearby, Geneva, Chambery, Annecy, Beauges, etc, why there and at this moment in time? ready to read and further contribute…cat

  7. Hi again cat,
    I guess you are a cool cat. ;)
    As Max writes above we area ‘old’ commentators from the MZT-blog (see Max’s link above). You might get information on that blog, but it is an incredible lot to read (17 threads).
    There is also a summary of the discussion on that blog here:http://www.marilynztomlins.com/articles/the-chevaline-killings-a-summary-of-the-discussion-on-this-website/#sthash.E3jSF3XB.dpbs
    And you are probably right, there is a lot of fear in Haute Savoie right now, a fear of what will happen next.

  8. hi Lars,
    trying to digest all these bits, not that easy i guess, already caught the red eyes, please bear me for a little while longer…
    indeed Haute Savoie and surrondings are wet and dark places, specially lakeside, cat…
    ps – what’s the use for the private forum? thanks

  9. cat,
    As said we are a group of commentators from the MZT-blog. We have also been in contact with each other privately, through emails, to discuss various matters. Some material is too sensitive and not suitable for a public discussion. That’s the use of the private forum.

  10. Hi shadwell, feel free to post your ideas.

    I have the feeling Chevaline and Lathuile are in some way connected. Mainly because Lathuile happened just one week after the release of the robot image. The robot image perhaps triggering some things in the small community. Furthermore I find the account of the husband (JP) of the shot woman (Nicole) a bit bizarre. It sound more like an episode of Columbo. And the scar JP has (because he supposedly was hit with the shotgun) sound a ‘nice alibi’ to me. I’m putting my money on JP. Perhaps Nicole discovered some things about Chevaline and wanted to go to the police, and perhaps that is why she had to be killed.

    … burglars, young guys, with gloves, masks and weapons … who were ‘put outside’ the house by 2 elderly people? Now c’mon;)

  11. thanks Lars, (as you know coming belatedly joining the discussion…)
    questions though:
    to your knowledge, are we now today certain the gun was a Lüger, there is mention of a Skorpion vz 61, etc
    and any other confirmation of presence for fast white Peugeot 206/306?
    pretty sure more elements to be cooked in coming weeks, days…cat

  12. cat,

    Yes I think we can be sure that it was a Luger P06. The police (Eric Maillaud) has not, to my knowledge, said it straight out, but often referred to the gun mentioned in the press, and never denied that it was that type. On the contrary their statements have supported it.

    No, the only one who has mentioned the Peugot 206/306 is Sylvie Lecoeur in Chevaline.

  13. Fine, nevertheless Skorpion gun was mentionned in the press I believe, same caliber, more recent and widely used in Balkans and Middle-East,
    for the Peugeot could be worth to follow suit, a witness or ? locals maybe hiding aftermath,
    confirms initial impression: lots of window-dressing, like a spectral scene, hiding real play…uneasiness to speak, or “blocage “? cat…

  14. Read the #Chevaline Twitter feed, the e-fit hasn’t given anything, very odd words from Maillaud again, about the time it will take.

    Hello Cat, and rebonjour to Shadwell.

    Does anyone recall the date of ZAH bail hearing in January ?

  15. cat,
    Yes, I think the Skorpion was the first weapon mentioned in the media, but now everybody seems to agree that it was a Luger P06.
    The police has never shown any real interest in the Peugot, in contrast to other cars like the X5 seen by an ONF-man on Route Forestiere. I don’t know if they don’t trust Sylvie or if they have been able to identify the car. The police in France is not especially communicative.

  16. thanks Lars, Lüger gun is a fairly good smooth operator in this case, sharp and focus…with local flavour,
    as regards French gendarmerie and colleagues, sour impression reading all that with a fresh look, maybe smtg too big to swallow, or very silent for too good reasons, we’ll see, cat…

  17. cat, I think the British Police have confirmed a Luger, I question myself as it was so many months ago. Try a search in English, press will give it up.

    I posed that the Peugeot 206/306 was either Fillion-Robin or his builders mate, either way it must have been identified because the two unidentified are the motorbike and the BMW X5 which could be an X3 !

    Even Maillaud isn’t sure of the latters description, said so himself.

  18. Cat,

    Because you are relatively new to the case, a first ‘impression’ can be useful:) so, a simple question:

    Do you think it is about Saad (SAH) or about Mollier (SM), or perhaps both or perhaps none?

    (And why do you think that?)

  19. Hello, thanks Lynda, useful, Lars, difficult to add my two cents too, and to grow with lessons learned by those who came before, avoiding pitfalls in a situation where stale ideas are being recycled with the same effect. Two facts strikes as quite unusual: killing of family, attack on a child, and the fact that SAH, SM and Martin are/were more or less linked to intelligence bizz at-large, quite a coincidence in time and location. This may lead to exclude tracks for an isolated madman and in a sense a very restricted local crime. A common point of confusion still inextricaly remains, what happened in Geneva and around, bank, prosecutor office, airport, tunnel, and Swiss jail for a month?, then, how to move this forward and offer up new language without proper info?…cat,

  20. The most bizarre thing about ‘Chevaline’ is the fact that Eric Maillaud made SM collateral within 16 hours(!) and got away with it … until ‘Lathuile’ happened just a few blocks away practically on the doorstep of BM. Now it is quite evident that EM can’t point to the UK in the latter killing … So what exactly DOES he do? … Nothing!

    And that seems to be THE common factor in both killings. A lot of police men, stacks of paper works, but results?? Nada

    There is a simple reason for this. They are looking away from the killers. On purpose. And they use every opportunity to do so. Stalling the case: No photo of SM, Releasing the X5 after 9 months, Releasing the robot image after more than 1 year. No SAH photographs shown. No asking for ‘who did see SAH, SM or whatever’ to the general public. Hiding the LR to SM phonecall for the public. Suggesting that in all the paperwork and harddisks of SAH there is the solution.

    SAH and SM were shot … BM (blood on his hands) is declared ‘hero’ within hours. How? How could they be sure BM did not kill all?
    Nicole is shot … JP (blood on his hands) is declared not guilty within hours. How? How could they be sure it was not JP who killed his wife Nicole?

    In my book the person who saw the victims last alive and/or first dead are the main suspects. If they like it or not. But not in this case. BM walks away as hero, JP walks with a nice scar above his eye.

    I have nothing against BM and/or JP … but HOW ON EARTH do the police know practically instantaneously that those guys are innocent??

    SO, to sum up: SM was declared collateral in 16 hours, BM was declared hero in 8 hours. The solution was to be found in the UK … Ok, Eric, if you had solved within 2 months, I would have applauded. But you didn’t! Eric, you SAID it was to be found in the UK … so why does it take so long to proof this??? … and worse even, you, Eric, NEVER explained WHY the solution supposedly was to be found in the UK. You NEVER explained this, you only said it was to be found in the UK … but you NEVER gave a reason for this! Oh yes, the ol’ …. ‘to protect the inquiry’ … sure … like the helmet thingy? Well it obviously did NOT pay off!

    Well, Eric, you have a second chance. The seemingly ‘simple murder’ of Nicole. Now proof that you CAN solve a case. They pay you for that, don’t they?

  21. @Cat, problem is as far as we know there has been nothing released to suggest that SAH, SM and BM knew one another, just because BM was British means nothing, there are many with second homes all over France.

    If you have this knowledge,
    “and the fact that SAH, SM and Martin are/were more or less linked to intelligence bizz at-large, quite a coincidence in time and location”

    then you have had access to information that those of us who have followed from September 2012 do not.

  22. to Lynda, indeed you’r right, this might appear just coincidence, not a probability nor a striking occurence, no matter to extrapolate further, those intelligence offices are linked and might exchange if necessary; more peculiar seem the Swiss causal connections, financial and ?, no insights on what has been done ultimately by prosecutor and what’s remain in the closet…succulent gems hard to chew?

  23. Thanks for setting up a new forum Max , just poking my head in to say hello its good you have provided somewhere for MZT to continue perhaps Marilyn could put a link on the end of the final post to direct people over ,just a thought .

  24. Hello Pink, we’ve not been so active, maybe that will change after the airing of the ‘Non-Elucide’ France 2 programme on the 5th January 2014.

  25. Hi Lynda I didn’t know about the programme you mention and without MZT it is difficult to catch any new info on the french side so I am really pleased that Max has done this forum so there is a least a chance of catching the odd updates .
    Its difficult to keep momentum without any new information but with somewhere to check what others are saying I do get fresh ideas .

  26. Pink and all,
    Even if we will not be very active here we will try to keep everybody posted about major events in the investigation.

  27. Hi Pink, yes I decided to offer a space to perhaps continue the discussion. It needs some critical mass. Hope some others will find their way too. I keep it a ‘zero effort’ (moderating) thing on my side.

    My view on the case is that possibly the Lathuile killing is connected. Both cases have in common that there is no advance made whatsoever;) The fun aspect of ‘Lathuile’ is of course that there is no way to carry this abroad. No X5 so no ‘UK piste’ … nope, my dear Eric, this one is *really* a local affair:P

  28. agreed Lars, but with Lathuile we might also being carried away, who knows, borders are very close to Ht Savoie & Savoie, still bemused by collision of time and location in this area, and true when reconsidering all that “not a single thing of everything” seems pretty cryto at this stage…just wondering how to proceed now, should we wait till January France2? cat…

  29. @cat

    Many of us ‘old’ commentators has this story all the time in the back of our heads, whether we want it or not. So even if the activity might be lower at times, we always keep our eyes and ears open for things around these murders and this area.

    Regarding Lathuile I think it is obvious that even though these people may not directly know the people involved in Chevaline, they do so indirectly (if you understand what I mean). Many of the people who are witnesses in the Chevaline murders, are close friends or acquintances to the families involved in the Lathuile murder. It is very unusual that such a small place are the scene for two brutal murder cases within such a short time (around a year). So for the time being I think it is best to keep eyes and ears open, and have an open mind.

  30. Lars,

    I don’t agree with the line ‘Lathuile is brutal murder’, because this is NOT how it is posed. The general idea is that it is a burglary gone wrong, and that, by shooting through the door (so Nicole was not visible!) this is not a murder, but more an ‘accident’. Because we also take JP (Nicoles husband) words when he utters ‘I do not understand why they didnt shoot me?’

    Above is the general feel.

    But, you know that I hold the ‘real murder’ scenario. And that JP killed his wife Nicole, and FAKED the burglary (perhaps with helpers) and FAKED the headwound (alibi) and constructed a ‘story’ which contains, imho, a kzillion of holes:)

    One of them being the question of if JP had the time to put his shoes on … because we know he ran after the burglars on the street to see the car speeding away. Soooo, what about his shoes? Did he ran barefooted onto the street?

    It sounds Columbo, I know, but I guess the whole ‘Lathuile killing’ is one big Columbo episode, which is of course a step up from The Inspector Closeau affair which is the ‘Chevaline Killings’:)

  31. Btw, Lars, do you remember when I talked about this ‘strange’ experience I had. As if Nicole was whispering things into my ear. Lol, and I’m not even a medium, but anyway we had a good (private) laugh about it and Iirc Lynda was a bit scared, lol:P

    Sooooo, I dug up the text, what I had made of it. Can’t hurt to put this in public, the deciphering that is, not the whole ‘session’ of course. To be taken with a grain of salt (I don’t;) don’t be scared like Lynda:)

    And this all to gain some critical mass to this forum.

    Deciphering the session (not set in stone):

    1. Are you Nicole? (Love) = Yes (1 figure, Nicole)
    2. Did JP kill you? (Delight) = Yes (4 figures celebrating, Nicole, JP and 2 ‘burglars’?)
    3. Is Marco involved? (Let go) = No (1 figure)
    4. Is ‘Chevaline’ connected? (Synthesis) = Yes
    5. Is it about your daughters? (Communication) = They talk, but about what? (4 figures phoning, 3 girls and 1 other. Nicole? Claire? Who?)
    6. Does the police know who did it? (Education) = No? (Multiple figures being educated by somebody else. Perhaps the police has to be told/educated by outsiders?)
    7. Was SM the target? (Inspiration) = Yes (The card shows mountains, and a figure painting. The figure is designing the idea to kill SM in ‘the mountains’)
    8. Is PM involved? (Simplicity) = No? (Keep it simple, no complex ‘mask’ scenario’s etc.)
    9. Does the X5 exist? (Honesty) = Yes/No? (1 figure looking in the mirror. Is Honesty is an issue here? Or is it simply true?)
    10. Is SAH connected? (Belief) = Yes? (2 figures. 1 figure jumps to be catched by the other figure, expressing ‘faith’. Nicole thinks SAH was connected?)

  32. Max,
    I meant ‘brutal’ in the sense that the perpetrator was not provoked or pressed to shoot by the circumstances (if we are to believe the only testimony), and that the perpetrator shot without any regard to the possible consequences.

    Otherwise you are quite correct that the perpetrator could not foresee the consequences since he shot through a close door.

  33. Lars,

    And on top of that, I have read that JP (said he) was on the balcony supposedly calling for help when it (the shot through the door) happened. So he actually did NOT see it happening.

    I don’t know when Nicole died. Was that before others (like police) arrived? If so, we only have JP’s words for it. He could tell ANYTHING and there would hardly be a way to verify his words!

  34. Thx Lars,

    So then you have the next question. Why was she just behind the door? And Why did the burglars shoot?

    Was Nicole behind the door to keep it closed? Could be, but then, as I reasoned before, that should have been the task of the stronger MALE … hence JP! And let Nicole do the ‘calling for help’

    And why did the burglars shoot? Certainly NOT to re-enter

    So why DID they shoot?

    Yup Lars, you mused that it could be to intimidate them … sure, but shooting THROUGH the door and killing Nicole must very probably mean that they were standing exactly in front of said door (because otherwise I imagine the shot to deflect) … sooooooo. Why did they stand right in front of the door and shoot?

    You see, I can’t make any sense of this killing and JP’s ‘explanation’. I simply suspect JP TO BE THE KILLER:)

    And that should be the very first thing to do. To investigate JP=Killer … but no, he walks … comes as no surprise because it is exactly the same ‘atmosphere’ as the Chevaline killing. Defining hero’s (BM) and collaterals (SM) within hours like there is no tomorrow.

    The very first thing the police said about the Lathuile killing was that it was a case with a lot of ‘pistes’ (lol) …

    « Le cambriolage qui a mal tourné est bien sûr une hypothèse », a admis hier le substitut du procureur de la République Yann Jomier, lors d’une conférence de presse organisée sur place. « Mais ce n’est pas la seule hypothèse sur laquelle nous travaillons… » a-t-il précisé.

    They should watch more Columbo episodes. That guy walks in, pin points the murderer and uses the rest of the show to expose him. I guess the “Lathuile Killing’ episode is the episode in which the killer (JP) walks away:)

    There is no reason to be soft with JP. Nicole was murdered and JP was there. He should be (by pure logic, and nothing personal) be Suspect No 1! Simple as that:)

  35. Max,
    I can only speculate. You have to really be at the scene and know where the shooter was standing to be able to formulate a more reliable theory.

    First it must be pretty easy for the police to establish on what side of the door the shooter was standing and where the victim is. The police say that the shooter was on the outside and the victim on the inside (hard to reconcile with the husband, if she didn’t throw him out in the middle of the night, and he shot at the door in anger).

    If we believe the husband’s testimony I can well imagine the perpetrator shooting at the door in anger when they left. He (they) had obviously failed whatever it was he was up to. So to turn around as he left and shoot at the door in frustration is something I can imagine to happen. If the original idea was to intimidate the family it could even seem appropriate. Though as I said above, without any thoughts about the consequences.

    I hope that the police this time have done the obvious, searched the premises for the gun, looked for gun powder residues on clothes etc.

    Still over a month after the murder, no news from the police, no arrests…
    Just like Chevaline.

  36. Lars,

    JP wants to kill Nicole. They stay up late. JP finds excuse to ‘go outside’. Gets shotgun … Oh, how silly the door is closed … JP rings the bell. Nicole comes down to open. JP shoots through the door. Nicole dies. JP hides the gun. JP calls emergency, with his ‘story’ ready.

    … So, how exactly can you disproof this ‘scenario’:)

  37. Now, add to this the ‘cherry on the cake’ … the scar. Isn’t it just like a Columbo script? With JP pointing at the scar and saying ‘Look here, they hit me’

    Think of it. Isn’t it just in-cre-di-ble that the burglars did hit JP with the gun, when they where still inside. But were still, in some inexplainable way, being ‘worked out of the house’ by the two elderly people. I’m amazed that the police seems to accept this bizarre account.

  38. Hey Max, ‘elderly people’, hmmm, he’s 64 she was 55, we’ve not seen a photo of either to understand their build or experience !

  39. Well Lynda, I’m putting a bottle of Champagne on the bet that JP is lying. He made up the whole story. Btw, a brilliant script for a Columbo episode, if only Peter Falk hadn’t passed away. Most 70’s season episodes of Columbo are great. The opening episode ‘Murder by the book’ was directed by none other than a very young Steven Spielberg (pre Jaws)

  40. Silly thing, Max, I do wonder how many people planning a crime look it up on the internet beforehand.

    In your scenario, the no DNA no trace etc. is used as a ‘lesson’ a ‘way’ to carry out a crime without being caught, so is the one of Xavier Baligant, Gregory Mercier and all the Chablais murders, is that because they are linked or learned….

    LEARNED.

  41. Aren’t we all more aware of the trace we leave behind us via DNA, so what do criminals do, they cover up their faces, their hands, even their feet/shoes/boots in plastic, yet at Chevaline the ‘cops’ know that the perp moved around the clearing – so I guess that the perp wasn’t all covered up, his footwear was visible.

  42. So … in #lathuile they brought a shotgun to perform a burglary and in #chevaline they brought a luger to halt a BMW and massacre a family. Surely a strange choice of weapons

  43. …what to expect now, rereading all the storyboard, what’s real behing the beat?, weird but usual weapons, elusive witnesses, close borders, swiss mysteries, absence of communication from authorities, this means something too big to swallow and/or faint incompetence?, and again and again, vortex of fear and blood, location lake, camping site, mountain road, parking lot…

  44. Thx N.N … it will be interesting to see if anything new comes up. To me, THE key figure is ONF1. ONF1 being the guy who places both MC and X5 within 1 minute of each other at Martinet BEFORE the shooting, and thus suggesting a UK hit team contra SAH.

    I however put my cards on ‘ladies man’ SM being the target. To me there obviously are ‘forces’ who try to put SM=target under the carpet.

    The reasoning that while SM was shot 5 times, SAH was the target … is baffling … but it seems like the investigation can get away with this.

    The explanation that LR call SM 10 minutes before he was shot was about ‘shoes for the kids’ is another major weirdy.

    The ‘fact’ (according to ONF1) that MC was first at Martinet and AFTER that he went roaming beyond Martinet only to be redirected back to Martinet by ONF2 (like they said ‘MC, dont wait here, SAH will arrive at Martinet, plz go back to Martinet’) where he then shot SAH, his target … is beyond imagination. Just ask yourself: WHY would MC leave Martinet if that was the spot where SAH would arrive? Answer: NO CLUE … in other words, this makes NO sense.

    Yet the investigators seemingly continue happily with all these weird things, explaining away every ripple, every SM/local thing and dedicate a 10 year search into a (UK) dead-end.

    Nope … to me, SM=target

  45. Pink, there is a tendency to believe it IS a picture of SM. If it is, then I guess Non-Elucidé dug it up somewhere. Imo it also shows that the family did not cooperate … otherwise they would have provided a recent picture. Anyway, to be seen when the programs airs.

    For non-french, remember that you can see the program via http://www.filmon.com/tvguide/france-2

  46. Max as I do not speak french I will not be able to follow the plot, I will just have to watch the pictures and hope I get the gist from those of you who can understand what is being said :)
    It is odd that old photo I have seen several pictures during the course of the various blogs and I don’t
    see any of them resembling that one ,do you remember Oui’s cycle group photo it might be worth a compare with that ,or the meeting photo when there was some speculation on which one might be SM. if anyone has a link .

  47. I have just seen the teaser with sound and they do say its SM ,what is the shot at 00.28 I cant make it out?

  48. Happy New Year, ya’ll.

    MAx, the SM photo that’s turned up.
    Why is it “black and white” ? Dramatic effect by the TV people ? Black and white went out of favour for “snaps”.

    Also… is he wearing a “team” shirt ? Football ? Rugby ? It doesn’t look like cycling.
    Very strange.

    Clearly it’s not come from the “internet”. Maybe a “local” ?
    Or maybe an archive picture from a newspaper ? (meaning still no locals are “helping”).

  49. http://fccezusentreprise.leclubdefoot.com/

    Cezus have a footie team.
    I guess a lot of “industrial” areas field footie teams. The “grassroots” of the game.
    Can anyone find old match reports ? Maybe they even made the back pages of the local papers once, hence the “black and white” picture.

  50. Hi Bacchus, hi James, feel free to continue discussing the case here. Let’s see what the upcoming Non Elucidé program will give. Catch it at http://www.filmon.com/tvguide/france-2 (I will:)

    My pet theory is that Chevaline and Lathuile are connected, in a very local way. A Twin Peak-esque way maybe

    To me there might be a link between: SM – Lathuile beauties – The sept 5 2012 killing of SM – the sept 22 2012 double marriage of the Lathuile beauties – the nov 4 2013 Robot image reveal – the nov 11 2013 killing of Nicole (mother of the Lathuile beauties)

    The motive might be Sex/Relations, and the killer might be the one who gave a perfect Columbo-esque account of Lathuile killing

  51. I to believe that “somehow” those two events are linked.
    Maybe (one) of the killers was indeed “hired”. Maybe they were both local. Maybe even the same person.

    I have never heard of one Public Prosecutor commenting on another case before…. especially so publicly and so quickly.
    And Eric is usually so considered.

  52. Hello James,
    So you have also found this forum, welcome!
    I also think that the probability is pretty high that there is a link, between Lathuile and Chevaline, and then not only Brett Martin.

  53. Welcome to Bacchus too.

    James, I guess the photo is around twenty years old and that is from a local publication, probably some sports club. There is e.g. a Livre D’or from the Ugine rugby club. As Max said, the family was probably not willing to release a more recent photo. Since there is almost no contrast at all in the photo I guess it is originally a colour photo that they printed as black and white since it was cheaper (the photos in the Livre D’or are also in black and white).

  54. hi, greetings to all
    Lars..true, historical & factual background leads to pretty obvious connections Chevaline & Lathuile, similarly current and/or past occupation and location (permanent or occasional including residence) of Saad, Mollier and Brett, impact the big landscape with some secrecy agreements, deals for documents, family hate, who knows what; this said, would be good to revisit this telephone call to Swiss bank for appointment two days before the killing, man retained in jail there “several weeks”,etc…puzzled, as the number of pieces on the table grows the effort to determine where the next piece goes increases as well…cat…

  55. ….following previous,
    RTL podcast today L’heure du crime”, making off tv prog sunday next (in French)
    Réécoutez l’émission du jour en #podcast “La tuerie de Chevaline”
    http://bit.ly/1atNjAe
    …cat…

  56. My pet theory in 1 line?

    JP killed his wife (Lathuile) because she found out (robot image, helmet) that JP had killed SM (Chevaline). Motive? SM and the Lathuile beauties

  57. Lars…

    Hi there to you.
    I think that the SM picture was shot in black and white (like most newspaper pictures were) and it’s an archive original that has been reprinted. No copyright issues. No infringement of privacy (it’s already been printed previously with permission).

    Therefore… some local journo’s are doing what they can.
    The Mollier/Schultz family still refusing to assist.

    Hey Max…

    A “local” gun. A “local” helmet. A “local” killer.
    Sounds to me like a “local” matter.

    A “local” man shot to death in a “local” wood…. would only make “local” news.
    Nothing to see here.

    Here’s a MASSIVE long shot. Did “Fat Bastard” say that Saad “camped” in that area many many times ????
    He’d have seen “locals” then ? They’d have seen him ? They “kind of” know each other ?

  58. I’m satisfied that the photo shwn of SM is indeed him, the young man bears a striking resemblance to his youngest son from his first marriage, I would guess at a football shirt, there is someone stood behind him, so a ‘team’ photo and it looks alot like a football net.

    It is said he had worked at Cezus/Ugitech for 20 years, in the photo he looks younger than 25, late teens, early twenties at a guess.

  59. James, the Lathuile killing per definition is LOCAL:) … and if Lathuile is connected to Chevaline (to be seen of course) then Chevaline is local too. In other words, if Lathuile is connected to Chevaline, the case can be solved through Lathuile

  60. Hi,
    well, podcast not very significant…just confirmation of a local track, and still confusion about exact time and pace for SM and Brett climbing and arriving at Martinet (both knowing each other btw), and which road followed by SM since Ugine, how long and why, very strange if was not familiar with the place and get lost somewhere (!)…cat…

  61. Thanks, Cat for the podcast, from what was said doesn’t appear to be anything added that hasn’t already been on UK or French TV, apart from the photo of Sylvain Mollier as a very young man.

    It appears to confirm the reverse turn and that Mollier had worked at Cezus, was two months into paternity leave. Expect to see Maillaud, Vinneman, BM and PB (in shadow), Fillion-Robin and some of the usual ‘witnesses’ from the UK. Also Mollier still had his mobile telephone with him and that is how they were able to identify him. They put Saad as looking at the information panel.

    Talk of the gun being a collectors item, etc.

    Not expecting much from this programme having listened to the podcast and watched the trailer, we’ll see.

    Ceryinly in the podcast, no mention of Lathuile.

  62. Cat, I didn’t pick up ‘SM and Brett climbing and arriving at Martinet (both knowing each other btw),’ can you indicate how far in this was mentioned, have to admit when they started talking about the child hidden in the car, I was writing an e:mail!

    Will listen more intently later.

  63. Without going back through it again, it was said that he recognised Mollier as the cyclist that passed him earlier, not that he recognised him, maybe that is what Cat refers to.

  64. Lynda, the podcast hadn’t said much, my two cents, being fresh in the case, again encompassing posts found here and there, exact timing reportedly before and at Martinet still missing (important), and most intriguing and very odd, SM and relatives, cyclists, (but also Saad and Brett) very familiar with this part of lakeside Annecy or vicinity, all being at same location, same day, same hour; could indicate fatal meeting prearranged for one, or two together, with some acquaintance before blast (unlikely absolute aggression, psychotic Terminator?) …cat…

  65. Cat, so they didn’t know one another.

    Not sure I’d describe Saad as ‘very familiar’ with the region, all we know is that he’d taken his caravan and family there early 2011…..
    As an aside, the photo of Sylvain Mollier now being used, it is him going by family traits, I think the markings seen on it have been put there by the programme makers, it is obvious it is an old photo, probably from a book and no doubt a ‘team photo’, it has been enhanced for use on the TV programme. The odd markings occur at both edges, almost making it look like a folded page and the left hand side faded out, look harder and you’ll see the folds of another mans sports shirt behind him.

    PS: he is the spitting image of a much younger photo of Francois Mollier when he was playing rugby, mop of dark hair, regardless of the enhancement, it isn’t from a negative or original photo but a scan of a larger team photo.

    I kept the photo of Solidarité & Progrés meeting as found by OUI on MZT, whilst both dark and of slim build, side by side comparison says it isn’t SM.

  66. So Lynda,

    Nothing new re podcast etc. That’s a fair enough explanation so far.
    Guess the “release” of the pic is the only new thing we have.

    Max…
    Agree.
    My view. It’s a very local affair… and each murder is very linked.

    The thing is, why has there been such a big “cover up” ?
    We know (as absolute fact) that Eric made his claim that “Mollier was not involved” on the morning of the 6th.
    We know that is ridiculous as no “proper” investigation had taken place.
    People then say “Well that’s because Al Hilli was the target”. (And I don’t buy that).

    Eric “withheld” the “robot” image. And the “helmet type”. And the “one witness to the U.K. BMW” from the start.
    Following reason…is this because he “knew” it actually concerned Mollier ?

    Think about it.
    If those three things were released “early on”, then people would say…. the target was Mollier.

    Makes me think that it wasn’t “Mollier’s profession” that caused a “cover up”.
    But “Mollier’s killer”.

    Is that the “cover up” ?

  67. “bien joué” Lynda, as for SM he surely knew Doussard & Chevaline, very likely Le Martinet too, strange to consider he lost his way somewhere in the middle of the road, few remarks also referred to a very slow pace for Brett climbing up last miles (+30′?) and not recognizing SM on the spot, same cycling club…if local deal revenge deal, sure did’nt want any recognition, face and vehicule…any clue if ONF 1 or 2 did know SM, family, friends, drawing dead?…cat…

  68. Cat, Mollier DIDN’T belong to a cycle club, that was stated by the ‘maire ajoint’ who informed CS that it was indeed Mollier that was dead, he’s interviewed in Sundays programme. He knew Mollier.

    As far as we know neither did BM, and if he did why would he belong to one in Ugine, the otherside of Les Bauges ? He’s a holiday home owner, not so likely to join a club.

    IF, IF they knew each other it wasn’t through a cycling club, personal opinion is that they didn’t, BM ‘recognised the dead cyclist’ as the guy that had passed him earlier, that’s all and by his attire.

    Molliers Uncle Fernand (?), who lives in Faverges said that Mollier liked to cycle in the shade of the Combe d’Ire, he used to call to see him when he passed that way – of course it doesn’t mean he saw him every time, but it’s a great excuse if you want to ‘escape it all’ or some such. Mollier wasn’t lost and it wasn’t the first time he’d taken that road, someone didn’t know that when they spoke it out loud, now they do, so the description has changed, he ‘deviated’ from the route suggested by TS, (Le Parisien).

    I actually understand the Schutz/Mollier/Ringot family wanting to protect the two older boys from the media storm kicked up by the events, even if it is actually nothing to do with their father, there can’t be many of us adults who don’t have a private life, past experience that we would prefer the whole world not know about and least of all two teenage boys who still have to continue their education amongst the gossip.

    Whilst the two Al-Hilli girls were there, chances are they will be able to ‘forget’, they will no doubt have real questions later in life.

    I think Sylvain Molliers family would be better off opening up and showing their grief, he without sin cast cast the first stone.

    James, I still think Maillaud was ‘blinded’, because within minutes he was told that the owner of the car and therefore assumed driver was of Iraqi origin, he must have said ‘thank f*** for that! Not my problem’.

    There are two stories running side by side, in neither do I see that the Al-Hilli family had to be taken out at that moment and at that place.

  69. thanks again Lynda, we now understand SM decided himself, had a reason (?), to climb up Le Martinet,
    so, Brett + ONF 1 & 2 (plus a few workers, climbers, passants, berger), are witnesses first hand of traffic on this road and trails above during the critical phase, are they testimonial evidences, were they confronted, could be disregard, do some lawyers have access to the file? (“plaintes, parties civiles”, etc.), well, sorry for intrusion, have myself to surf again those blogs and press clips…good evening…cat…

  70. cat,
    The family of Sylvain Mollier (whoever that is, Mollier/Schutz/Ringot) is the only reported ‘partie civile’, so they have access to the file, or their lawyer, and I expect at least the Schutz family to have a lawyer.

  71. Cat, some have openly expressed their sightings on the day, Claude Antoine, Fillion-Robin, Sylvie Lecoeur, Paul and Lise Ducher, Denis Janin (reluctantly), his wife Catherine (Jeanin), Philippe Bossy, Brett Martin, then there are the others, Cedric ?,
    ONF guy and of course the second ONF who haven’t presented themselves in person or shadow or voice at any of the TV ‘documentaries’.

    Don’t forget young Melvyn, circulating on his 125cc trial bike where he shouldn’t have been, oh and the two women friends of Bossy whom he told to remain in his car, then the THIRD cyclist, a retired tourist, who approached the scene and was shooed away by the ‘people’ already there.

    Have I forgotten anyone ? Not l’Etoile but a busy afternoon in somewhere that is so ‘remote’ ! Look up Les Bauges, then follow all the links to Parking Le Martinet, it is off a main route, but it isn’t exactly without visitors and of course people working there.

    And, YES, Cat, Mollier appears to have chosen that road, whatever his reasoning may have been, as did Al-Hilli.

  72. Thankyou Lynda, hope someone will give those of us who don’t speak French well enough to watch documentary, a summary.
    What a strange picture of Mollier that is, I see what people mean about his hair now.

  73. hi Lynda, found luminous your idea of two parallel stories, hope we’ll find how to spike the switches,…a bit strange that Zaïd not being declared himself “partie civile”, we’ll have british lawyers implied, and, after all, those are his close relatives,
    as for Brett, ONF & others police should have mapped all these testimonials, apparent still uncertainty, guesswork about sth, timing, who arrived first at Martinet, etc., or they having now strong evidence and hiding facts, only press or lawyers could help in this case…cat…

  74. Had a strange thought, the only person that the killer would have known to be dead was Mollier, shot 5/7 times, outside of the vehicle after shooting through the windows he would not have been able to see into the car and as it hadn’t been opened, someone could have survived inside.

    It was reported that all the windows were in place, holed and shattered, so no clear view.

    Of course headshots would indicate that he’d killed them, take a look at some of the soldiers that have survived a would to the head, the gun was not pressed against their skulls.

  75. Sarah, it is a scan of a publication, probably enhanced to be able to put it into print and on the internet, there are two ‘pay’ articles today, one in The Sunday Times and another in Le Parisien as you can see from the Tweets above.

  76. @lars

    Hi, if you are interested to Gregory Mercier, I like to know if the foto “le repos des bisons” is a foto of GM of annemasse or of an another Gregory Mercier.

    au.fotolia.com/id/10144945

    Can you help me ?

  77. From the TWEETS of Ducos, he really doesn’t like the English Press does he !

    “Ce soir dans Non Élucidé sur France 2 la bonne photo de Sylvain Mollier et non celle diffusée par la si médiocre presse anglaise”

    The photo being used in the Daily Mail for example is the same as the one used in the programme trailer, maybe they have finally been allowed to use a more recent photograph.

  78. They haven’t it was just the expanded team photo, briefly, with CEZUS on the front, nothing much else to say, ONF1 has vanished along with his testimony about the MC, the first call made by Bossy upon meeting BM before going back to Martinet and the reverse arc of the car running over Mollier.

    I’m sure it’ll be available to watch again soon, just remember you might just waste nearly an hour and a half of your life !

  79. Found it interesting, for what it suggests and did not say…cover up medias style, zero-sum competition with other channels, could not do much more, lots of constraints, A2 official channel, etc; sure lack of imagination and of “parole” from witnesses, including ONF, but in some way while excluding Zaïd, confort the local track together with and/or the very high sophisticated intelligence dialectic, Middle-East and…more to come…cat…

  80. Thanks Max for the link to NON-ELUCIDE at the top of the page, will look again at some bits that I’d like to clarify.

    Vinneman came over very well, in his uniform, and not a sneer in sight !

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